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« ABC’s of a true church… | Main | B is for… »

Tuesday, February 14, 2006

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David

Thanks for your gracious and thoughtful words. In the blogosphere thinking and grace are not often combined. When you refer to a minister being sent do you mean by an established denomination or do you mean sent by God's Spirit? It seems to me that being sent by God's Spirit would be enough to found any type of ministry, given that God's Holy Spirit actually did the sending. I look forward to you upcoming posts on the issue.

Bumble

David, from the patterns of Acts, it seems like "sent" would be by the Spirit and through the community of faith. (I am not trying to sidestep "denomination", but I don't think that's really the issue.)

James Petticrew

Tod I am with you on this but with slight reservations. Firstly, I think the early church assumed an apostolic dimension that was ignored in subsequent church history in what developed in Christendom. Not only must a church be conformed to apostolic doctrine and submit to apostolic authority I would argue to be truly apostolic it must also be committed and involved in apostolic mission. On this understanding some very "orthodox" churches in church history were sub-apostolic and this may well have been the reason why reform movements moved out without their authority. I would argue Methodism is a prime example.
Also could the Reformation have happened according to your guidlines? Lets take Scotland because its my homeland and the homeland of Presbyterianism. Could Presbyterianism have come into existence without Knox and the other reformers defying the authority of the then established church? Could Presbyterianism have survived without the Covenanters defying the authority of the bishops appointed by Archbishop Laud?
So I agree the faith must be passed down through the community of faith but that community must be truly apostolic in the twofold sense I have outlined if its authority is to be binding.

Tod

James,
Thanks for writing. Your comments lead directly to two more of the "marks" that I will discuss: B: biblical faitnfulness and K: Kingdom Witness.

The issue of defiance is the exception that proves the rule. The dissenters left the "established" church because they believed that the church forfeited being the church by straying from the apostolic message. Their defiance was not considered just a matter of taste but of utmost seriousness and they could only "break" by asserting that they were in fact trying to be a true Church. Please see the previous post on Knox's marks of the church for example.

Please keep reading James and see if by the end of the list we have something that is helpful for both institutionalists and reformers alike.

Bob

Good article on "authority" of which is truly lacking in most churches today. From my perspective there are too many "self proclaimed" (sonny's) walking and talking like the church but have nothing to do with the church per sae. We live in a monsterously "I can do what I like" world and church where as a believer with little regard given to the "Word" or the "Church" that God has ordained and set up. It stems from members who refuse to come under the counsel of the Word (biblical authority) to churches who refuse to stand and act on the authority of the Word. I appreciate your insights that draw us all (no matter of denomination) back into the central focus of apostolic authority found in the Word of God.

Don

Tod-

Great post. A lot of what we see in "self-ordained" ministry today lacks biblical authority. It also lacks any sort of accountability. The reason I belong to an organization is for the support and a mutual accountability. When I was ordained, the bishop who spoke talked of the call, the cause, and the covenant. The call and cause are self explanitory, the covenant however, is my responsibility to each fellow minister on how I conduct myself and what I teach. The problem with a lot of "self-ordained" ministry is that it lacks accountability.

James Petticrew

I read the post in which you mentioned Knox, all that talk about the KIRK made me quite home sick :-)

Alex

Thanks Tod, I've been following your blog with interest from 'Down Under'. I thoroughly agree that there are too many independent movements and people in ministry.

That said, as a Baptist I am part of a movement where our founder self-baptised (albeit in the presence of others), and which sprung out of a reaction to the reforming movement!

I don't think being under 'apostolic authority' needs to mean institutional authority (and I'm not sure you're saying that). I think it does need to come from an attitude of submission to the Word, and to the broader church. There are movements in my homeland that are springing up with the blessing of others in the wider body, and working together with the body.

It's a tricky issue when our reformation tradition was kicked off by a split, and this has certainly accelerated in subsequent years.

K T Cat

Hi! I see us as natural allies. I just posted about kindness and how we benefit from it and if it can be used to make a point in your blog, I'd appreciate the link.

Best wishes,
KT

David M. Smith

“The church, to be the church has from the beginning been about submission to God’s authority passed through the hands and lips of others, not our own self-ordination”

Hi Tod,

It occurs to me that authority passed through the hands and lips of others is definitely a strength when the authority posses and teaches a truth or the truth. However, authority passed through the hands and lips of others can be a severe weakness when the authority teaches a belief that is false. If a belief is false, apostolic authority makes ridding the Church of a falsehood much more difficult.

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