Books I have written

Blogging Friends

  • Mark Roberts
    Pastor, Professor, Author, Speaker, Blogger Extraordinaire
  • Craig Williams
    Church planter and keen thinker on post-modernity.
  • Steve Norris
    Steve is the ultimate "regular guy Christian". You'll want to read his blog just to know that there guys out there like him.
  • K. C. Wahe
    A younger pastor with a way more life experience than many who are much older.
  • Steve Wright
    The church planter of a new fellowship in So. Orange County.
  • Tim McCalmont
    A Pastor's pastor, Tim's writing is refreshing to all who read it.

Leadership Bookshelf

« Revolution or Retreat? | Main | Mechanisms, Means of Grace and Missing the Point. »

Wednesday, January 25, 2006

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d83452044c69e200d8345a6a8169e2

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference A Not-So-New-Nor-Radical-Revolution:

» You Say You Want A Revolution? from The Marshian Chronicles
If you know where the title came from you are probably a Baby Boomer and a Beatles fan for sure. Revolution was on their White Album and I loved both versions of it. Revolution by Lennon/McCartney You say you want a revolution Well, you know We all wan... [Read More]

Comments

Darryl

This is one of the best assessments of Barna's book that I've read so far.

I'm all for new forms of church, and I hope that is what Barna is arguing for. I think the key issue he raises is what does it mean to be the church. Can some abandon the predominant model (meets in a building, sits in rows) and still have a strong ecclesiology, fleshed out in some non-traditional form such as a house church?

So I look foward to the rest of your posts on this book.

Zema Chambers

Several months ago, Barna was on TBN with Matt and Laurie Crouch. It was interesting to hear Barna say that he was "only reporting the trend" not commenting that he agreed or disagreed with the trend. I've not read the book, so I wondered if that is really true? As Barna was explaining his understanding of his data, Matt and Laurie picked up on the fact that things were on the change with people they knew. It was pretty funny when Matt asked for a comment from a pastor who was at another TBN location. I can't remember the pastor's name, but he was seriously backpeddling and saying that Barna really was "all wrong". Todd, did it seem to you that Barna was merely reporting from his data, or is he really promoting the whole idea of leaving "church" (as in the building) and walking in the trend of the "Revolutionaries"?

Sue

It sounds as though Barna's book may (unintentionally?)romanticize "lone-ranger Christianity" as the quixotic antidote for the perceived ills of the modern church.

In our poll-driven culture, many now confuse "the majority" with "the right." Perhaps Barna should take this into consideration when he presents data?

Dan McGowan

Right or wrong, Barna has taken a bold step to actually address an issue that is becoming much more common than, perhaps, some of us care to admit... because for we who work in churches (like me!) such a revolutionary movement would directly challenge my very means of income - not disounting, of course, that God can, and does, provide for us. That's a given. However, right now, this is the way "God provides" and if "the church" as we know it begins falling apart, what happens to our salaries?

Still, I was moved as I read this book (and my advice for anyone sharing a post here would be FIRST to read the book BEFORE you comment... seems only fair.) I was moved to consider that what if these trends Barna speaks about are accurate? If so, then we need to, at the very least, ALTER HOW we "do church" if we are going to honestly be servant leaders as modeled by Christ.

DennisS

In reading most of "It Takes a Church" today, I understand where you are coming from - and I agree with you.

I didn't catch this when reading Barna's report - but I read it prior to reading your book. Perhaps if you send him a copy of your book he will understand that a retreat from the church is far from God's Intention, far from "Living the Trinity".

Looking forward to what you have to say on Friday afternoon.

James

I, too, agree with your rejection of the individualistic implications of Barna's analysis.

However, let's say a Christian fits within this 'revolutionary' group, but the rest of the congregation he or she is a part of does not. Would this mean that the Christian in question would be approaching discipleship from an individualistic perspective?

I think in all honesty the answer would have to be no. The Christian in question is the one living out the faith, it is the rest who are not. I don't know about you, but if being a disciple of Christ means that in certain contexts I have to stand out as an individual in order to follow the Lord, then that is what must be done rather than follow the ways of men who are not living the faith.

Just some thoughts.

Sue

I only suggest this notion that Church is something which ought to morph according to whatever cultural pressures are put upon it has gotten us where we are today. Still, it seems, we press on looking for that "next level" that will cure the ills of the present generation's departure from what was already a "fix" for an earlier departure. Its a cycle of madness. Those who say "change the way we do church" in response to Barna data are like those who say "remodel the house" when the pilot-light goes out in the furnace. Everyone starts to get warm again as they work furiously on the makeover...but when it's all done, the same problem manifests, all over again.

David M. Smith

Hi James,

I think Biblical Christianity consists of “fitting in” and “standing out”. The two go together and are inseparable. When either the “fitting in” or the “standing out” are overemphasized at the expense of the other, the body of Christ is weakened. However, I can completely understand why strong Christians are leaving the local Church and going it alone out of discouragement and frustration.

From my perspective, part of the problem is the over controlling nature and the under performing example of many Pastors. Tod seems to be the exception, not the rule. He has the mentality and spirit of a true shepherd. When Pastors don’t have what it takes to lead by example, the local Church becomes just another social organization. Most of us have unlimited resources for proper exegesis. We can’t benefit as much from a Pastor who can explain a passage as we can benefit from a Pastor who lives a passage. Most Churches choose a Pastor based on the former and not the latter.

James

David,

I agree, many Christians become frustrated because they do not see their congregations living the faith. This frustration is especially noted in my generation (X) and my brother-in-law's generation (post-1982). These two generations see far too many leaders in the church speak the faith, but not enough (though there are many) setting the example of living the faith.

Mark La Roi

What an engaging post! I see a lot of Christian bloggers and others who have been hurt by a church at some point who begin to take up the so-called "Lone Ranger" life style, and it is so painful to watch because many of them don't even realize it.

A person doesn't have to stay in one congregation every Sunday for the rest of his or her life, but the regular gathering is so important to spiritual growth. The comments and even criticisms that come from others are often a good barometer of either where we are, or where our actions make us seem to be.

Eric Wilbanks

I'm seeing a lot of posts that seem to center on the apparent dichotomy of "local church driven" vs "individualized" faith. I'm curious...Why only the extremes? In other words, why is it that anything not local church oriented is automatically individualized and "lone ranger"? And what does that say about our willingness to wrestle with the truth that Jesus dwells in the presence of two or more? At what point does a spiritually enriching experience with other believers cross the line and suddenly become "church"? At what point does a church experience cease to be church and become merely "fellowship" or simply hanging out (i.e., how many things can you remove before you get to the essentials that define church)? And if we all know and understand that church is not a building, what happens to the practice of our faith if designated buildings are suddenly taken out of the picture (as they are for a majority of believers around the globe)?
Before we can wrestle with the validity of Barna's research, shouldn't we wrestle with these bigger items?

Mark La Roi

"In other words, why is it that anything not local church oriented is automatically individualized and "lone ranger"?"

~Speaking for myself and what I've grasped from the postings, I don't think that it's referring to anything not centered on the local church, but the danger inherent in moving away from a regular gathering with a body of believers.

Even in countries like China and Iraq where one is risking his/her life by identifying with Christ, there is a great effort made to sustain the regular gathering of believers in house churches of even only a few, because of the benefits that gathering provides.

I do believe that people walking with Christ will notice when the gathering has ceased to be fruitful, and will do something about it. It's kinda like having a lamp plugged into the wall that provides light for reading. When the plug comes out of the wall, (the lamp is no longer plugged in) those who actually were reading will know it instantly.

Those who weren't actually reading won't immediately notice anything.

Ted

As a pastor, I too long for people to be wholly devoted followers of Jesus in every aspect of life. But it's a tad ironic that the "revolutionaries" who love Jesus so much have no need of the church.

Yeah, church is full of messed up, half-hearted followers. And yeah, honest pastors sometimes wish they too could be done with the church.

I think what drives "revolutionaries" away from the church is its plodding nature. The "Revs" are too mature. They have no time for bunglers. (God help us if that was the attitude of the Apostle Paul). But that is simply pride and selfishness--and that isn't "revolutionary"--its familiar Adam.

David M. Smith

Hi Ted,

It sounds like you are saying that if those who have left the Church weren’t so sinful, they would be in Church every Sunday right along with all of the other sinners.

Don’t you think this issue is a little more complex and solving this problem a little more important than to simply blame original sin? Perhaps if those in the Church and leading the Church weren’t so comfortable and complacent, the trend would change. In our country, over one million babies are aborted every year. In Africa, millions of people are dying of starvation because of foreign aid and corrupt governments. In our world, Islamic terrorism threatens billions of people. In our Churches, we respond by having another picnic and marriage seminar. In our Churches, second hand smoke is considered more evil than materialism.

The trend away from Church by serious Christians will not change until fasting and prayer is considered more important than donuts and coffee, until timeless and Biblical truths are considered more important than felt emotional needs, until sacrifice and commitment are considered more important than a Rick Warren tape and book, until Pastors care more about the Body of Christ than they care about their career and the size of their Church.

Becoming serious again about the Body of Christ may not increase the number of People attending Church, but it will definitely improve the type of people in Church and therefore representing Christian values.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

My Photo

Your email address:


Powered by FeedBlitz

Techno stuff