Church Musings: Ideal Church

This past week I asked some people that I have never met to tell me what would be their ideal church.  Their answers were very interesting to me as a pastor and "practical theologian". 

Christine Daltillo wrote:

The church would have sound Biblical reformed teaching. Each Sunday I would walk out and know that the Gospel was preached. This is the foundation! From there I would look for a maturing congregation. Evidence of discipleship. I want to be part of a "growing in the knowledge and love of the Lord" congregation. Active church discipline and discipleship are hallmarks. People that pray and care for each other. I could go on and on... but let me also say - I'm looking for community.

Bowden McElroy wrote:

Three words: missions, discipleship, and community. I guess it's the Southern Baptist in me, but I can't imagine being part of a church that isn't strongly focused on missions and evangelism...The other side of the coin is discipleship: I want a church that's equally committed to strenthening and maturing believers...I think what I miss most is a sense of community. A friend of mine suggests that we Baptists should stop complaining about church splits and just admit that it's our preferred method of church planting. I'm not quite ready to embrace that philosophy...

Mike Russell wrote:

...the people are grounded in sound doctrine, evangelistic, and seek to make a social difference in their community. The fellowship is genuine and the people seem to enjoy one another. (Plus, they have an annual dance that is just for fun!) The preaching is excellent, a blend of the cerebral and the visceral...

Pete from Canada wrote:

That church I wish to be a part of should have a strong sense of mission or calling. It needs to see that's its primary task as a community is to help bring the Kingdom of God into this world. This must inform the worship, which should be liturgical, structured to reveal its purpose (intentional), and meaning-full. The worship should also be confessional, reflecting the talents of the congregation (Lord’s Day 21, Q&A55), and the nature of Christ's church-gathering work, from all times and all places...This sense of calling should also inform the preaching, which should be scriptural, relational, and cultural.

So let me ask you, what is your ideal church like? 

I'll leave this up through the weekend and then see if we can find some common themes together.  I hope many of you will comment.

Comments

[brad]

Tod,
1. The church is a people of the presence of Jesus (my sermon tomorrow). Laying on of hands..prayer..expectation of experiencing God in worship and community.
2. Very engaged in doing justice to the point that a distinctively simple life is present. People live frugally and sacificially for the work of doing justice globally and locally.
3. Discipleship is something that is done through "observation, imitation and discussion". The homes of people are open so we can learn how each other live. Community life as discipleship.
4. High view of scripture with respect to both our theology and our practice.
5. The arts are freely expressed in the worship experience and has representation from all cultures in the community and all ages.
brad

[Becky]

My Ideal Church Has:
~ Authentic teaching that challenges and inspires me, shakes me up and sometimes hurts.

~ Authentic worship that doesn't need the latest flash, multi-media equipment or polished performers. Just simple worship, a guitar, an overhead projector and a good leader. The rest, is up to me!

~ Authentic christians who welcome in the new-comers, reach out to their communites, have a heart for reaching the lost for Christ and leave the crap outside the door. No more gossip, egos, grumblers and complainers. Just lovers of God and lovers of each other.

[Greg Marquez]

I hope I'm not being a troll but…
I think the question itself reflects what's wrong with western Christianity.

God doesn't need people. People need God. We need to figure out what God wants church to be and do that. If people don't want to conform to God's purpose for the church that's their loss not His.

It seems to me that this kind of thinking comes more from a desire to build a big ministry than from a desire to build a big Kingdom of God.

Can you imagine the Commandant of the Marine Corps asking prospective recruits what kind of Marine Corps they would like to have? "I'd like a more friendly Marine Corps. No more yelling drill sergeants. No more early morning wake up yells." "Well, I'd like a more pacific Marine Corps. No more exploding stuff. And maybe more peaceful colored uniforms, I think pink might do the trick. How about a name change? Is Peace Corps taken?" "I'm interested in a Marine Corps which is much more open to using its members talents. I think everyone should have an opportunity to decide the tactics and strategy."

You might end up with a much larger Marine Corps that way but it wouldn't be good for very much. Okay, now that's beginning to sound a bit too much like "The Church."

"The Church" is that against which the gates of hell do not prevail. Anything else is not "The Church."

Greg Marquez
goyomarquez@earthlink.net
www.ivchristiancenter.org

[tod]

I appreciate your trying to put things in perspective Greg, but if you read the responses so far, you'll obviously notice that no one has mentioned any of the qualities that you have criticized. So, far, just the opposite.

I have a hunch that for most of us the ideal would be for "my" church to be more "God's" church. The interesting thing is to see how diverse those opinions can be.

Thanks Greg. And may God bless your worship tomorrow.

I hope others will keep chiming in.

[Doug McCoy]

Tod, my ideal church is one where, when the church comes together for worship, It is a reflection of the lives they live through the week. Where people come in the doors they say, "I want what these people have." Where hearts are changed by the presence of God, and people get set free from the baggage they have carried all their lives. Where grace abounds towards each other. Where Gods presence causes people to want all God has for them, and are willing to spend their lives and lay down their desires to see people get free.
Where people have the understanding that Jesus is worthy to recieve all He has bought and paid for.
Purchased with the blood of the Lamb.
Doug McCoy Junction City Or

[Teresa]

UMMM! The biggest thing I could think of would be community: people sharing in Christ, and caring for one-another. PRAYER, about everything! My ideal church would be one that relys on the Holy Spirit to direct the worship and make detours when prompted to. One that's not stuck in programs and politics but that puts people 1st. One that is more outward than inward (where does their $ go-to the people OUTSIDE the building or IN?). One that stands firm on God's Word, but makes people feel open to question anything and everything and not be ridculed for it. A church where people are accepting of anyone who wants to know Christ or is questioning what knowing Him means. One that is not too churchy-one that is full of "real" people. I would say, a church who when a strange-looking, dirty, homeless person walks in, greets him with a big, friendly, but not intimidating HUG! PS: Todd, I am really glad you put this out there!

[Mark]

In his book, 'Life Together,' Dietrich Bonhoeffer warns against having notions of the ideal church in our minds. It is these very ideas, he says, that create problems in the church and, I would say, can reflect a consumer mentality.

The Church is a fellowship of recovering sinners, a hospital for hypocrites. No matter how wonderful, every church has its blind spots and failings.

I've always thought that the reason for that was best explained on an episode of the TV series, MASH. Hawkeye Pierce, the crack surgeon, loses a young soldier whose life he thought he'd saved. Despite operation room heroics, the soldier dies. Hawkeye is destitute. The hapless Colonel Blake, attempting to encourage Pierce, tells him that they were taught two rules at command school: Rule #1: In war, young men die. Rule #2: Doctors can't do anything about Rule #1.

Hawkeye is unimpressed and asks, "What's that supposed to mean?"

Blake says, "If I knew that, I'd be at the Mayo Clinic. Does this look like the Mayo Clinic?"

Our churches owe their lives ultimately to our Founder, Jesus Christ. But none of them are "the Mayo Clinic." They're imperfect outposts of heaven in an imperfect world. Our members and pastors may be forgiven sinners, but still marred by sin nonetheless.

Perfection won't happen until we get to "the Mayo Clinic." It's only in eternity that we'll fully understand the imperfections that have marred our churches, our families, and our lives. Until then, we're called to live in imperfect communities, praying and working, praying for God's transforming grace and the outpouring of His Spirit. God has been known to answer those prayers and honor our faithful perseverance.

None of this is meant to imply that we shouldn't pray and work for improvements in the spiritual atmospheres, the discipleship, or the evangelistic passion of our churches. It does mean that we shouldn't hold an ideal of the Church over the heads of congregations where, for good or ill, Jesus is worshiped, God's Word is proclaimed, and Christians are deputized to live their faith week-in and week-out.

I'm not critical of your question, Tod. I just offer this as a cautionary note. I hope that it makes sense as it has been dashed off rather quickly.

[Mark]

By the way, I am very impressed with the comments that have preceded mine here.

[cathy]

A church that doesn't feel like "a" church--one that's so integrated in my life that I couldn't distinguish being in it as being any different from the rest of my life.

[bill]

Echoing some of the sentiments of other responders I must say that the notion of 'ideal' is problematic. Personally I have spent way too much time on considering the idea. That being said, and knowing that you, Tod, are not deceived about the pursuit of ideal church, I will sum my response up like this:

People truly loving God, each other, and their neigbors (i.e. the world). To me this love must drive all our attempts at better doctrine and better organization. As the oft used Jesse Helms quote goes, "I'm not sure I can define it but I know it when I see it."

[Bernie Wohlfarth]

It's 11:20 Sunday morning and I am sitting in a coffee shop in June Lake, pirating someones wireless internet. Normally I would probably be "passing the peace of Christ", but today I'm passing nothing but time...I miss church!

So what is my ideal church? I think for me it is a place where my deepest needs can be met, but at the same time, a place where those needs being met is not my primary focus. If we are honest, we are all drawn to a church to satisfy some sort of internal need. The defining moment however, is when we become so engaged in the Church that our lives turn to God in worship, our focus turns to others in service, and our needs are met in the process.

[Becky]

It's Sunday morning, 11:55 a.m. and I just returned from....drum roll please....church. Hi Tod. Just thought I'd let you know that because of the discussions on this blog, I felt compelled to go to church this morning. I picked one that meets in a hockey arena (not actually on the ice but in a room upstairs). I went with an open mind and heart and with a smile on my face. Sadly, my son wouldn't stop crying in the nursery so I really only got to enjoy the worship in the first half of the service. However, it was a step towards community for me again and to tell you the truth, walking in there felt a bit like coming home. Thanks for encouraging me to think along the lines of church once again. God bless you as you celebrate worship on your side of the world.
~ Becky

[Gayla]

W/O reading anyone else's comments...

It would look like the church I attend now. Praise God!

- one in which the Word of God is unapologetically taught
- one that encourages wrestling with God on difficult texts
- one that doesn't ignore difficult texts or create "theology" to make us "feel" better about God
- one where small groups/community is required and nurtured - as in the example of the 1st church
- one that worships God in spirit and in truth, recognizing that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are just as relevant today as in the 1st century
- one where the pastor is not a "one man show," where he is transparent in his walk with Christ
- one where it is understood that we, as Believers, are "mixed bags." We have a bent toward sin and sometimes we operate in the flesh. Confession, compassion, forgiveness and healing are available to all thru the blood of Christ.
- one where the lives are changed through encounters with the Living God - Believers and non-Believers alike

[Teresa]

I hate to take up space here since I've already commented. But,I having been following this and put a link on my site to go to here. Now that I have read more comments,and since the weekend is almost at a close, I have one more comment: "For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them" (Mat. 18:20). WE, the body of Christ, ARE the church! Church is NOT a PLACE. US, gathering at the same time, in prayer or discussion, even on the web can be church. A hockey arena can be church, church can HAPPEN at Starbucks or in the park--in the Bible CHURCH happened wherever they were.

[Gayla]

Teresa - I totally agree. Some of the most richest moments in my life have occurred when "impromptu church" broke out!

[Micah Girl]

Ideal church...

Welcoming the lost and the wandering into the joy of being found.
Making disciples who live out Christ's life wherever they are.
Living in holiness and freedom, grace and forgiveness, purpose and calling as a community.

Does this exist between the now and the not yet?

Micah Girl

[Pete Porter]

Tod,
A very timely question, the chruch is going through a transision period. My response is on my site, please visit. It was to long as a comment.
I do believe the Lord would have us to be enabled to participate as his body, and not just be observers.

[David M. Smith]

The ideal Church is an organization centered on Christ where what people say and what people do are indistinguishable.

[Derek Simmons]

Tod:

My "ideal" church would Jesus on my right, Jesus on my left, and when those on my right and left looked left and right, they'd see Jesus. Now, let me get "real."

I think you also asked what changes I would like to see in SCPC to make it more Christ-like than it already is. Here, in no particular order except the first seven, is what I'd like to see change:

1. A congregation with a Session strong enough and wise enough to tell-not ask--its Senior Pastor "Go on sabbatical; we have been well equipped to "do church" in your absence. Go: have a wonderful time and come back to us refreshed and renewed."

2. A congregation committed enough to make Jesus their Lord as well as their Savior, so that cheerful submission to their leaders and to each other out of reverence for Christ is a matter of course. [In other words, put Eddie Gibbs’ book out-of-print!]

3. A congregation where 80% of the people know each other's names and the other 20% are working on it.

4. A congregation where 80% of the people tithe--both money AND time--and the other 20% are working on it.

5. A congregation where 20% of the budget goes to the mission committee and the entire congregation is working with the session to reduce the other 80% so that the mission giving percentage can be increased.

6. A congregation where Holy Communion is celebrated every service every Sunday and at mealtime on Big Wednesday.

7. A congregation where 80% of the people are in Small Groups and the other 20% are working on it.

* A congregation where 80% of the activities--including worship service--are not merely multigenerational but inter-generational and the remaining 20% must, by their very nature, be uni-generational.

* A congregation where 80% of the music is the same at all worship services and an inter-generational effort is underway to address the remaining 20%.

* A congregation where culture has something to worry about from us rather than us having something to worry about from the culture.

* A congregation where if the Pastor preaches a sermon that lasts half an hour no more than 20% of the people have a cow.

* A congregation where 80% of the people know they worship in the Reformed Tradition and the other 20% are working to understand it.

* A congregation where 80% know we are a connectional church and 20% care that we are and are working to increase that percentage.

* A congregation where 80% of the people don't gossip and are willing to confront the other 20% in love.

* A congregation where 80% of the people participate in Big Wednesday and are actively encouraging the other 20%

* A congregation where 80% of the members show up every Sunday and at least 10 people know when 1 person is absent, 5 of them knowing why, and the other 5 filled with enough brotherly love to find out.

* A congregation where membership comes with commitment and submission to each other out of reverence for Christ.

* A congregation where a children's choir doesn't have equal importance with a pipe organ.

* A congregation that doesn't measure its success by the number of members it adds but by the number of Christians it raises.

* A congregation where 80% of the people know were are a part of the PCUSA and what that means the other 20% care and are working to make our denomination worthy of its King.

[Tim C]

I thought about his question a lot and came to the odd sounding conclusion that the ideal church would look a lot like the Burning Man Festival.

http://www.burningman.com/whatisburningman/about_burningman/experience.html

For those not familiar, Burning man is a yearly experiment where 30,000 or so people from all over meet in the desert of Black Rock and create a city for a week. Part art installation, part experiment in community.
Christians would do well to look past some of the more obvious craziness that goes on amidst some of the partiers that week, and see something deeper, and in many ways I think a model for the ideal Church.

Stick with me for a minute while I explain:

** The Church Could Learn to be Inherently Communal

Within days the Burning man community appears out of the dust, including streets, towns villages and theme camps. Everyone there lives there and if only for a week, creates a new small kingdom and live together in it.

** The Church Could help Instigate Experiences in addition to Teaching Propositions

Burning Man has a central motto, that actually fits well in the Kingdom of God, but I think we often forget: "No Spectators." You can't attend BurningMan, you have to Co-Create it. You interact and experience it.

http://www.burningman.com/whatisburningman/about_burningman/faq_what_is.html#Participation

I think the ideal church is like that, you are invited not to watch a play, but to be invited to play an active part in the Kingdom.

Everyone called to co-create, co-build and be the Church together.

(Using the theater metaphor: Isn't the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper almost exactly that? All of the Church gathering to re-act out that Last Meal together?)

** The Church Could Learn to Better Question the Status Quo

The ideal church would be more like Burning Man in this respect... Many of the art installations at Black Rock City are about questioning and re-thinking our assumptions about life and about the way the world works... often in very disarming ways.

The ideal church would be more like that.. not just a safe place to question the state of things, but an active instigator of such questioning -- Inspiring re-thinking, re-penting and re-formation both outside and inside the Church walls.

** Lastly, the Church Could Learn How to be a Community of Many Stories and Expressions Pointing to our Central Story and to our Central King.

Each year Burning Man has a theme and everyone attending are encouraged to in any way they wish, to creatively express and riff off of that theme. And they do: music, sculpture, crazy art, sublime art all of it telling an amazing amount of different stories. And central to all of this is the large statue of a figure "vaguely like a son of man," who is sacrificed on the last night. (In their case, in a fiery burning.) All the different types of expression ultimately center around and point to the Burning Man.

Similarly for the ideal Church, we would encourage and instigate a million types of stories and art and expressions of the Kingdom of God. Embracing old and new, traditional and experimental, crossing cultural bounds in our expression of our love of God and his greatness.

And unlike the more vague figure of Sacrificed Burning Man, in the center of this community to which all our creative stories and music and lives would point to would be the Person of Christ as the Word of God Made Human Flesh. The Lamb of God Sacrificed for Us.

[Derek Simmons]

Tim:
If "Burning Man" is a model for your ideal church, what happens on Day 8?
Derek

[Tim C]

Hi Derek:

Fair question:

The things I think the Church should model from Burning Man clearly go deeper than what the "burners" experiment with for a week. What people keep going back to Black Rock for year after year to touch and experience briefly, the Church can model in life-long, day-in and day-out ways.

Tim
Tim